When pro wrestling began to suck...

I can't really tell something about the times where kayfabe was truly in effect, it was probably already a little blurry in the golden era.

Haku appeares to me as a general honest guy from a culture he embraces and did not give up and is kind of a genetic freak for pain, not really a RL heel. Most wrestlers even praise Haku as a great guy.
Ric Flair comes to mind as a RL heel living his life like he really is the Nature Boy, pissing his money away at women he insists to marry. Or JBL, a guy most people love for no reason beside him being a bully and stock trader, prototype of a guy you could hate.

A true heel in the sense of kayfabe would probably just embarass himself today like Punk and Orton do, kayfabe is dead outside of the wrestling rings and promos.

Orton(and Alberto del Rio recently) is one of the last of a dying breed heel, the "I am superior in any way to you even when I run" guy in the tradition of Mr Perfect who only jobbed for the main event in his prime and helped make Bret Hart and would have helped make Kerry von Erich. Sadly he lacks the charisma of Mr Perfect, but he's good enough to be a tweener lone wolf.
Miz, hm, I would compare him to Rick Martel if not to Bagwell, although that' a stretch. Martel was actually great and higly entertaining as Model Rick Martel, but when I see the Miz I just see a high school bully. Good for him that he made it to the top, but I seriously don't know why.
Ziggler is a guy I had so much hope for, channeling Ric Flair. He was great! in his IC matches vs Kofi. But look at him now, a guy who wears a pink shirt and calls himself the showoff, jobs nonstop to the stars and needs MITB to be WHC, that's a trainwreck waiting to happen.
Sandow is great, a nice blend of the Genius and Martel.
Morrison could have been the next Rude like type, but WWE blew it big time by sending him in alone without a manager to speak for him, maybe a hot businesswoman like Eve who fell to the charm of the Shaman of Sexy but is level headed in every other aspect. Even to his fans it seemed clear that Morrison is as lifeless as they come in promos, awkwardly smiling and with the brawling quality of a guy who drinks tea with his mum every evening and likes to weave nice rugs on his loom...

And there is not even anyone remotely close to Jake Roberts, sigh.

Cookie Moster is the Heel of the future

Harrier, it honestly just sounds like your trying to figure out why WWE doesn't have any real assholes working for them anymore. That's what your "real heel" stuff seems to boil down to. Now, why you WANT to find these real assholes, and I can only assume cheer them for being such assholes is beyond me.

I suggest you find and cheer on Hardcore Holly. He was an asshole. And he lived his asshole gimmick by being a legit asshole.



Your comments on Ziggler hold no weight. He is still a great talent and him vs Jericho will be a great match. The "showoff" is just a stupid nickname, like a 1000 other stupid nicknames in WWE, and the MITB can be a great stepping stone for him and a perfect way to jump him into the main event scene.

You think Damian Sandow is great....ummm....ok....

And now your saying Morrison could have been Rick Rude? Your comparing Morrison to Rick Rude? They have literally nothing in common to compare with each other. Yeah, your right about Morrison having shitty promos as a face, but thats not exactly new. As for his "brawling quality" You do realize he was a high flyer right? and NOT a brawler? Or do you only respect brawlers?

People love JBL, by the way, because the guy worked his ass off in the ring, had several great matches, was a great brawler, and had moves that, when sold properly, looked devastating to whoever took them. On top of that, his promos were top notch. If you honestly think people love him just because he was a bully and was a stock trader, then you seriously don't know nearly as much as you think you do.

The Miz IS a high school bully. That basically is his gimmick. He is the high school bully who, instead of ending up washing your car 10 years later, ended up as the WWE Champion, main eventing Wrestlemania, match quality regardless, and is on one of the most watched shows on television. The Miz is the High School Bully who never got what was coming to him, and history has shown that people love to watch the High School Bully get taken down.

And yes, Kayfabe is dead. It died in the 80s and wouldve died anyway with the internet. Get over it.


Honestly, the more I read and debate against you, I find myself getting in the same situation I was in when I was arguing with the worthless "smart marks" of the IWC. The ones who thought they knew everything because they looked it up online and that somehow made them smarter/better then everyone else. They have arguments like this, where they say stupid things, then try to make stupid points that make no sense, before ending with "everything was better in the Attitude Era!"

So far, the only thing not mentioned here has been the attitude era.


Face it guys. We have here an old timer who cant let the past go, a guy who is either a member of the IWC, or isn't but is still somehow exactly like them, and the experienced guy who actually knows what he's talking about and is losing patience.

Trust me...We should either drop this topic entirely, or at least change the topic to something that would cause less debate and less chance of an arguement. I suggest changing it to something simple....like favorite wrestling theme tunes for example. I'm sure in that department we can all three of us find something we actually agree on.

Harrier you really don't know shit about wrestling. Also you don't know how foolish it looks to whine about wrestling in a thread that makes fun of people that whine about wrestling.

Stop now or I will do this to you...

The question was how I would compare Miz and Orton to wrestlers from eras gone, and I did that. Where is that saying a heel has to be an ass in real life? If I wanted to watch a total asshole, I would watch wifebeater Austin, women stealing Jarrett or Screwjob McMahon all day.

I actually heard that Kane is a really great guy in RL, and I am a big fan of him regardless if he's heel or tweener/face. Or Otunga being a smart man and loving husband who supports his wife after that terrible shootings? Or Hunico, a humble guy that is very proud of his mask collection although portraying a mexican gangster? Or Hawkins, a guy who get's saddled with a stripper gimmick and volunteerly stepped back into FCW to up his craft some years ago? Heel Undertaker who was supporting a shelter for large dogs without a home? I support all these guys and want them to appear on television and have success!

Bob Holly is a piece of shit from all reports, and I never liked JBL. Or New Jack, the prototype heel, that's a man who belongs into jail!

Basically, all I ask from a wrestling company would be:
*Don't make your guys generic. I know, that's something what an IWC guy would say, but it's true. When a company goes PG and looses nudity and violence to sell, characters should be more colorful to replace that. Let your guys wear robes, give them facepaint, valets, managers. If asking for a character(not a person) like Warrior, King Booker, Bam Bam Bigelow or Goldust makes me an IWC guy, then guilty as charged. Celtic Warrior Sheamus would be great, but Cena 2 Sheamus isn't.
*Use strengths of your guys, not let them do what you like. Morrison is a terrible brawler and everybody knew it. But what happened on his return? He stood there, smiled like a goof and brawled(?) with Truth. Wasn't the fault of Morrison, just the wrong guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. Don't you think that it would have been much more exciting to have his new manager verbally destroy Truth on the mic with him utilizing his strength at a later PPV, looking good and flying in the ring?
*Remember your storylines. I am so sick of hearing that John Cena never lifted Big Show before, that's lame.

And again, I am certainly not asking for wrestlers to be meatheads, cheaters, throwing pills or be a general hazard to the public by wrecking hotel rooms or no showings. Jake Roberts and Scott Hall are some of my GOATs, but both guys are so much down the drain that it's painful.

And as you asked^^ for it, here my top 10 themes:
1. Unstable - Ultimate Warrior
2. Slay me - Sting
3. Trust me - Jake Roberts
4. The Game - HHH
5. Sycho Dance - Sid Vicious
6. Rap Sheet - Booker T
7. Holla if ya hear me - Scott Steiner
8. Electrifying - The Rock
9. Nation of Domination - Nation of Domination
10. Crow theme - Sting

Edit: I get the message and will just shut up from this point on.

Harrier, Ignore Kitten. She just wants to hate on you.

Kitten, I love you, but your not exactly a part of this issue.

Second, now that you have further explained your previous comments, Im inclined to agree with you on a fair amount of them. Perhaps I just wasn't fully understanding your points.

My message was not for you to shut up, but for you, me, and the "old timer" Urban, which I say with respect, to change the subject to something we are more likely to agree on instead of starting a cycle of constant debating. Which would get boring and settle nothing.


For the record, while I disagree with some of your views, I will "shake your hand" and say that I am glad there are people who know something about wrestling around here. To be fair, Tiefblau and I disagree on....well, just about everything involving wrestling and still became friends of sorts.

Also, New Jack belongs in Jail. Horrible person.

As for my top 10 themes:
1.Grand Sword -Kenta Kobashi
2. The Darkest Side-Undertaker
3. This Fire Burns-CM Punk
4. Broken Dreams-Drew Mcintyre
5. Blood-The Brood
6. Kiseki No Jushin-Jushin Thunder Liger
7. Horsemen-4 Horsemen
8. All Great Muta themes-Great Muta
9.Written in My Face-Sheamus
10. Perfection-Mr. Perfect

It is my thread and I will hate if I want to

[quote="Kitten":2zhpbpry]It is my thread and I will hate if I want to