We Should Talk About The Title Scene

Winner3 wrote:
If you want to believe that is the impression being given, that's your prerogative. Your agenda. Literally no one in this thread has or is demanding a title.

I don't have an agenda. I don't have a prerogative. I'm retried. Shit doesn't effect me.

I've been on AFW since 2009. I've worked with nearly every member of this site of note, and spoken to most of the rest. Believe it or not, I know and understand how things work around here. I've been involved with so much on this site that most people don't even know about.

We've been down this road before. Usually when people go 'hey it should be easier to get a title and the title holders/veterans should contact US about it instead of the other way around', that translates as 'I want it to be easier for me to get a belt without putting in the work!', and even if that's not how you mean it, that's how it comes off.

I think you're coming across as every bit as arrogant and condescending as you feel some of us are, if not more. Racker and various others have brought up very valid points. But rather than discuss them and everyone else's in a constructive manner, I feel like you've decided to take them as personal attacks on yourself and other/previous title holders. No one is here to attack anyone's worthiness of a title.

I've been trying to discuss it, but from the first moment, y'all have turned around any criticism from any of the veterans into 'NO YOU'RE NOT LISTENING WE NEED RULES AND BELT HOLDERS SHOULD CONTACT US'. You're all acting like none of the veteran's opinions are worth anything and that it HAS to be the way you guys want it.

Making more belts doesn't automatically save any division in pro wrestling, but neither does doing nothing. Having no rules at all has never been conducive to any type of productivity anywhere in life. Defending the concept of freeform/no rules for the sake of it being freeform/no rules helps no one.

Funny. That's helped AFW survive for over a decade with a large playerbase, which is a hell of a lot longer than most RP sites could even dream of surviving for.

Multiple people feel like some belts are restricted to a small circle of members that flat out ignore the possibility of allowing those outside their circle to contend for it. A minimum requirement  for belt eligibility (age of account, number of matches on the character) has made enough sense that there are more people here arguing for it than against it. I think you're the only one that's explicitly argued against this concept as a whole, actually.

Two things here. One, Kelsea proved that was wrong when he posted the stats at the start of the thread, the total number of title changes. Two, you're contradicting yourself. If you want to help make the belts less restrictive, then putting in rules that restrict who can get them is going to do the exact opposite of that.

The fact that there are many people that take issue with the way things work is proof enough that it isn't working for everyone and could be better. If you don't want to put effort into trying to make it better, that's fine. Just say that. But don't act like there are no issues at all. And don't act like anyone is out here to undercut the credibility of others.

That's a fallacy. I could easily say 'the fact that many people think there's no problem' means that there's no problem.

But hey. What do I know. I'm just a veteran of the site that's been through the site's best phases and it's worst phases, and has done a ton of work both in public and behind the scenes helping this place grow and survive. Fuck me, right? I'm just a veteran that's not listening to the newer generation that's so right about things.

I'm going to attempt to leave this thread now. Good luck with y'all's issues. Maybe you'll get all the extra belts and needless restrictions that you want one day.

Alexandra wrote:
We've been down this road before. Usually when people go 'hey it should be easier to get a title and the title holders/veterans should contact US about it instead of the other way around', that translates as 'I want it to be easier for me to get a belt without putting in the work!', and even if that's not how you mean it, that's how it comes off.

To you. No one here is advocating for that. Point out to me exactly where anyone explicitly said title holders should have to contact others or where people said it should be easier to get a title. Please convince me that you're not making assumptions and choosing to take people's opinions on the matter a certain way. Because right now, from my point of view, that's not how you're coming across to me. It's what you're actually doing. And it's not constructive. So I implore you to stop until people actually start doing those things you seem to be so adamantly against.

Alexandra wrote:

I think you're coming across as every bit as arrogant and condescending as you feel some of us are, if not more. Racker and various others have brought up very valid points. But rather than discuss them and everyone else's in a constructive manner, I feel like you've decided to take them as personal attacks on yourself and other/previous title holders. No one is here to attack anyone's worthiness of a title.

I've been trying to discuss it, but from the first moment, y'all have turned around any criticism from any of the veterans into 'NO YOU'RE NOT LISTENING WE NEED RULES AND BELT HOLDERS SHOULD CONTACT US'. You're all acting like none of the veteran's opinions are worth anything and that it HAS to be the way you guys want it.

No one here is bashing the opinions of any veteran. No one said that it HAS to be a certain way. No one said that belt holders have to contact others. No one, besides me, is saying we NEED rules. You said that. You made those allegations.

Alexandra wrote:

Making more belts doesn't automatically save any division in pro wrestling, but neither does doing nothing. Having no rules at all has never been conducive to any type of productivity anywhere in life. Defending the concept of freeform/no rules for the sake of it being freeform/no rules helps no one.

Funny. That's helped AFW survive for over a decade with a large playerbase, which is a hell of a lot longer than most RP sites could even dream of surviving for.

It's entirely possible for something to be suboptimal and survive. This point seems entirely irrelevant to the goal of this thread, which myself and others have stated several times now: is assessing whether or not there are problems (with the title scene) and if action should be taken.

Alexandra wrote:

Multiple people feel like some belts are restricted to a small circle of members that flat out ignore the possibility of allowing those outside their circle to contend for it. A minimum requirement  for belt eligibility (age of account, number of matches on the character) has made enough sense that there are more people here arguing for it than against it. I think you're the only one that's explicitly argued against this concept as a whole, actually.

Two things here. One, Kelsea proved that was wrong when he posted the stats at the start of the thread, the total number of title changes. Two, you're contradicting yourself. If you want to help make the belts less restrictive, then putting in rules that restrict who can get them is going to do the exact opposite of that.

Kelsea proved that:

Kelsea wrote:I went back through the records of Friction champions (seems we don't have Tension champion history listed out as clearly).... There has been 44 title changes and from what I can see only about 5 or 6 of them changes actually involved the same two members (across the board regardless of character used and title involved).. And I think 2 or 3 of them cases may have occured been due to ongoing storylines.

So within the Friction brand, about 5 or 6 of the title changes of the last 44 have been between the same two members. This does not invalid the ongoing argument. This just proves, exactly as Kelsea said, that within Friction, there have been 5 or 6 times belts have been swapped between the same two people. It does not prove that getting a belt isn't more about who you know than your ability to craft a good story or make compelling character or be good at roleplaying. It does not prove that one or more belts are not confined to small circles of people.

Also a rule is not the same as a restriction. There is no contradiction if you understand the definitions of both words. There could very easily be rules that force the pool of title contenders to be more diverse. I'm not advocating for that particular rule, but again, you're reading into things that simply aren't there.

Alexandra wrote:

The fact that there are many people that take issue with the way things work is proof enough that it isn't working for everyone and could be better. If you don't want to put effort into trying to make it better, that's fine. Just say that. But don't act like there are no issues at all. And don't act like anyone is out here to undercut the credibility of others.

That's a fallacy. I could easily say 'the fact that many people think there's no problem' means that there's no problem.

There is no fallacy. If the goal of a website is to make sure that the vast majority of users can enjoy all its features, then a significant number of people being dissatisfied with how a feature works should be cause for a change.

Alexandra wrote:But hey. What do I know. I'm just a veteran of the site that's been through the site's best phases and it's worst phases, and has done a ton of work both in public and behind the scenes helping this place grow and survive. Fuck me, right? I'm just a veteran that's not listening to the newer generation that's so right about things.

I'm going to attempt to leave this thread now. Good luck with y'all's issues. Maybe you'll get all the extra belts and needless restrictions that you want one day.

Your sarcasm isn't appreciated. Your credentials don't enforce your argument. Again, you're being arrogant and condescending. More so than the newer generation that you believe to be incorrect on this matter.

*Still see this going*

*doesnt know what to do*

*continues to frown*

V

*Gives KillerV a cookie*

Person wrote:*Gives KillerV a cookie*

Can I have video games instead? I dont like sweets

Alright can we please stop with the name calling and finger pointing. I get that your becoming frustrated Winner3 but take a deep breath and don't take everything that being posted personally and take a deep breath and relax.

As for Alexandra I got one question for you and can you please give me a reply. So far some of your posts have bin about how the newcomers are being critical of the veterans and need to stop whining about not getting title shots the easy way. And your right about the simple fact that if you want to make one of your characters become a champion then you got to put in the work.

But from the way your posting right now you seem arrogant and a bit of a snob. Seriously what were you thinking when you type something like this.

Alexandra wrote:I've been on AFW since 2009. I've worked with nearly every member of this site of note, and spoken to most of the rest. Believe it or not, I know and understand how things work around here. I've been involved with so much on this site that most people don't even know about.

And not expect it to rub people the wrong way. Seriously everyone on this site is important and this kind of comment does not help you make you a point.

Also regarding the latest comments of KillerV and Person.

Don't make fun of this thread as I could do the same with other threads that I think are important to you and your friends.

Maybe I can put this a little bit into perspective:
The main championship in friction was held by Darius when I arrived here in 2011. He was not that active and 2012ish, the title was stripped from him and went to Tatyina if I remember well. From then on, it went indeed a little club members only with Angel being the exception and Kitten, Talia and Tiefblau somewhere in the mix too. Tatyina and Bluemouse were very deserving champions, but the championship felt most reachable when it was in Angels hands.
I honestly don´t know if people simply did not dare to challenge for the belt with such obvious contenders set or if they were shot down idea wise.

It was also pretty obvious that the entropy championship was planned for the long run after Dahaaru lost it.

And as I already said, nobody gave a flying fuck about the kawaii belt, and even I sat on that for 3 months until my match with Dragonswill was over. It takes time to finish these things.

tl,dr: Even when you loose your belt, it will take time. Long time champions usually don´t just sit on their asses and sun themselves in the glory of their belts.

This thread is toxic as fuck.

And btw, someone said he would not be proud of a southwestern, million dollar belt or something. I would carry such a belt with pride, I still can´t stop smiling when I think about the fake belt Adrian Kytes used to carry around.

Edit: Maybe a compromise would be if AFW would officially aknowledge such minor belts and list of achievements like Royal Rumble, Survivor Series or EC wins? Not have a local belt be defended regularly, just admit that it is there.