Stats

I understand stats in RPG's are fairly important, but here it seems like a fairly nebulous concept. I was hoping to begin a conversation where we look at the stats we put on our characters with a bit more depth. Standardization seems like a ridiculous dream, but I would like to hear what the community has to say on this topic. There is of course an understanding that stats are not an end, but rather a means.

I use a star system from one to five. The way I view my char's stats is on a relative scale. So a character with five star strength will have strength that is comparative to or more than five out of five of their potential competitors. A character with a four star rating in strength has strength comparable to or greater than four out of five wrestlers they may face, and so on. I understand that it may seem like a way to deny others' agency but I am not sure what sort of objective rating I could summon up from thin air. This one at least means something in the wider context of AFW.

Then, on to the individual stats. Strength is the most straightforward one: how capable a character is of lifting heavy things and putting heavy things down. This one is more or less completely decided in the gym and lacks other outside factors. Speed is fairly obvious as well. To me, it means both straight line sprint speed, as in how quickly a character can get from one corner to the other, as well as general reaction time. When I write a certain move, I imagine that one character can execute it faster than another. Technique means a few things for me. It is both wrestling knowledge (which submissions or throws any given character knows) as well as the best means to perform certain moves. For example, where to place one's feet when one is trying to throw an opponent and how to properly hold an opponent to place them in an armbar. Defense is the ability to both sustain impacts as well as protect from them. So a character with high defense has the ability to block them, and a certain insensitivity to pain. Endurance is both stamina and a capacity to shrug off taking blow after blow in a wrestling match. A character with low endurance will get tired easily and will not be able to carry on after a few blows.

I would love to hear everyone's opinion on this. I understand that some people forgo these statistics entirely, and I would like to hear their reasons even more.

I think standardizing stats would be a nice thing, really, in just about any RPG but this one. AFW is a really unique beast - I've never played any other RPG that works even remotely like it. In a superhero RPG, for instance, that sort of thing is easier to enforce, especially when you have a smaller group that's working towards related goals, and a mod that can keep track of it all and watch out for overpowered characters and make sure the stats are enforced.

There's nothing like that, here. There's nothing to keep someone from making a character OP, there's no requirement that everyone even uses stats at all, and there's no consequences if you don't follow your stats or decide to godmod. Some people don't use stats at all, or use different stats, like Cirno.

I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, it's just the way things are, and I don't see them changing without a massive overhaul. It might be something that would work if things became centralized, but I've heard talk about that several times since I've gotten here, and it never goes anywhere.

Also, minor note, but aren't Defense and Endurance sort of the same thing, the way you described them? They both seem to deal with a character's ability to take hits. I've always been iffy on that, myself - usually, I just think of defense as a character's ability to defend and counter attacks effecitvely, and Endurance as their ability to withstand blows and overall stamina.

The stats only exist here because the site is predominantly made up of gamers who like that sort of thing. I don't recommend using them, and I don't think they add anything to the process.

Also, strength isn't so straight forward. Having a good deadlift doesn't mean that you can hit hard, and it doesn't mean you can planche or do one-arm pull-ups. I think you're better off writing in the nuances of your characters' abilities without a silly little 5-star thing, but to each his own. I understand that my approach isn't the norm.

I use the stats of my characters as guidelines for myself, giving more or less points if I want a girl to loose or to win most of the time.
"Ok, Barbara has strength 5. She can pick an opponent, even a heavy one, up and throw her around."
"Anja has technique 5. Yes, she can show that flying reverse corkscrew elbow."

I really like it this way, but I had the same thoughts as you when I joined here.^^

Harrier wrote:I use the stats of my characters as guidelines for myself, giving more or less points if I want a girl to loose or to win most of the time.
"Ok, Barbara has strength 5. She can pick an opponent, even a heavy one, up and throw her around."
"Anja has technique 5. Yes, she can show that flying reverse corkscrew elbow."

I really like it this way, but I had the same thoughts as you when I joined here.^^

About the same way for me. The stats are a good guideline, and it helps me iron out what I want my characters to be and what they're capable of, but I'm not married to them.

acuya wrote:Also, minor note, but aren't Defense and Endurance sort of the same thing, the way you described them? They both seem to deal with a character's ability to take hits. I've always been iffy on that, myself - usually, I just think of defense as a character's ability to defend and counter attacks effecitvely, and Endurance as their ability to withstand blows and overall stamina.

The way I look at it, defense and endurance are fairly similar, but they are not quite the same thing. For example, a character with low defense would be more likely to stay down after a huge blow as a single blow will have more of an effect on them. For example, Jessica has a defense of five, and Eka has a defense of three. When they are hit with an inverted suplex from the same opponent, Eka will stay down slightly longer. Endurance, to me, is the ability (or inability) to persevere through moves over the long term, like the whole length of the match.

Bluemouse wrote:Also, strength isn't so straight forward. Having a good deadlift doesn't mean that you can hit hard, and it doesn't mean you can planche or do one-arm pull-ups. I think you're better off writing in the nuances of your characters' abilities without a silly little 5-star thing, but to each his own. I understand that my approach isn't the norm.

For the most part, I completely agree. I write the stats for other people, so they have a general idea of what to go off of. Like, how likely a character is to win at arm wrestling. But I think of the ability to do different things with one's strength on the technique scale.

The only reason I use stats is to show what my character excels at, what they are average at and what they suck at. In all honesty, I don't really pay much attention to stats and the only time I ever use them is when one of my characters locks up with my opponent in a test of strength. Aside from that, I have never really paid much attention to stats. The only other time I pay attention is when someone give their characters max stats, like 5 out of 5 in everything. In which case I then proceed to roll my eyes.

acuya wrote:I think standardizing stats would be a nice thing, really, in just about any RPG but this one. AFW is a really unique beast - I've never played any other RPG that works even remotely like it. In a superhero RPG, for instance, that sort of thing is easier to enforce, especially when you have a smaller group that's working towards related goals, and a mod that can keep track of it all and watch out for overpowered characters and make sure the stats are enforced.

There's nothing like that, here. There's nothing to keep someone from making a character OP, there's no requirement that everyone even uses stats at all, and there's no consequences if you don't follow your stats or decide to godmod. Some people don't use stats at all, or use different stats, like Cirno.

I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, it's just the way things are, and I don't see them changing without a massive overhaul. It might be something that would work if things became centralized, but I've heard talk about that several times since I've gotten here, and it never goes anywhere.

Also, minor note, but aren't Defense and Endurance sort of the same thing, the way you described them? They both seem to deal with a character's ability to take hits. I've always been iffy on that, myself - usually, I just think of defense as a character's ability to defend and counter attacks effecitvely, and Endurance as their ability to withstand blows and overall stamina.

I'm very used to the kind of stats your describing, thats what I've used in other PbP rp's on forums. But, those RP's usually have 3 to a dozen RPers who set everything up in advance and probably know each other. That is how you do it when your game is about the fight. But, on the other hand, AFW isn't unique. I've doen MANY PbP RPs where the "game" wasn't about the fight, the fights were just events that happened to advance the story.

AFW is the latter--the game isn't often played for the sake of the fight, many (if not most) of the fights have OOC staged endings and staged events. The stats can be COMPLETELY ignored and the game would still work fine. There more like the fights in, say, Mass Effect. They exist to advance the plot, not to be a real challenge. They are just things that happen in between making the more important story decisions. You have to make the difficulty REALLY HIGH if you want them to be challenging.

In simpler language, standardized stats are needed for competitive RPGs. In theory, AFW is not. Competitive PbPs only work with small groups of RPers who know eachother.




Another problem is this--even if we made the fights more competitive and game oriented, there's hundreds of players and hundreds more characters than the smaller PbP's that use stat's for the sake of making a game of the fight.

Unlike the dozen RPers who know each other (and who have the same interpretation of a stats system), everyone has different interpretations on AFW. The net result is this--we can't standardize because it's too nebulous. If we switch to a, to use a crude example, a 1-10 system, I'm going to have a VERY different interpretation of what a 5 defense stat is than someone else is going to have. Then we'll probably argue--"Hey wait, you only have a 5 defense, how have you evaded EVERY SINGLE attack for the last four action sequences?"

It's not conducive.




So, what does this all mean?

Stats are only needed if we're playing competitively. In theory, we aren't. In practice, some are. The net result is that clique's form. I end up just avoiding people who RP in a way I don't approve, and I form a small cadre whom I do play with. Everyone else does the same thing, and these cadre's overlap and shift. Some cadres have fights as events to advance the story, and some have them because both RPers enjoy a competitive thread. Either is fine, but the latter isn't my style. I don't have a problem with the current state of affairs, really. Everyone does their own thing.

Well... what I was going to say has been kinda voiced in various ways already...

The only purpose stats should serve here is to give players a rough idea of what they could expect from the other member's characters... Maybe if you wanted to face a powerhouse specifically, you could look up on the stats to find one... If it were used for anything further, the stats become a tool to facilitate competitive play; in which members are trying to achieve their own separate end goals rather than work together to meet a mutually beneficial/gratifying end.

Rather than trying to make competitive play work better, we should be trying to ensure that we are undertaking "collaborative play" instead

(((I also should have added that, as with the Mass Effect example, there's many exceptions. I do do threads where it's competitive, just like ME has some combat elements that are more than simply basic third person shooting transition events (the "save the colonists on Feros" mission comes to mind). But those are usually just fun asides, and again I usually do them with my cadre and they know and have the same interpretation of strength/weakness that I have.)))