Topic: Wrestling?

Vance Archer sucked though.


He should go back to TNA and be awesome again.




As for Jeff Hardy, I would not call him "the most important talent" on the roster. If he is, it's only because his contract is ending soon. TNA was doing fine when Jeff Hardy was gone, and was doing fine before they put him into the main event scene.

Nor would I call him "underrated" by any stretch. Underrated would be a wrestler who has great matches and does incredible work, only to rarely be rewarded or noticed for such work. Hardy has always been shilled as being one of the best of whatever promotion he is in, and has always been rewarded. Now, a talent like say...Alex Shelly, when he was in TNA, I would say he was underrated. One of the best all around wrestlers in the company, able to work and mix multiple styles, and was given only two title reigns in his 8 year history with the company? Desmond Wolfe, when he was in TNA was very underrated.

Hardy....I wouldn't say he was overrated, like I would RVD, or even (sometimes) Kurt Angle, but I would certainly say he's been more then noticed for his talents, even during times like his title reign of 2010, which, quite frankly, sucked, and is generally considered by longtime TNA fans to be one of the worst years of TNA's existence in total.

Of course, that could be more Hogans fault then Hardy's.


I do agree however, that TNA is kissing Hardy's ass and that it is a bad thing. While true, he hasn't had a bad match since coming back, that doesn't change the fact that Hardy has NEVER been a reliable talent. He has shown in the past that he has been more then willing to miss shows (He did this in his first stint in TNA before) , quit companies rather then go to needed rehab (WWE in 2003), literally screw over a company that trusted him with it's main event. (I know the Victory Road thing was a while back, but he will never live that down) and has admitted to, on several occasions, simply not caring about wrestling, and letting that effect his ring work. (Vengance 2001, as well as his first stint in TNA)

This is not a guy you want in your world title scene. This is not a guy you want main eventing. His merchandise will still sell like hotcakes with or without the title, and, while he can put on a good match, you simply cannot trust the guy. He has been given more then a fair chance, time and time again, and he's always done something to ruin it. Now, maybe Hardy has changed his ways for good, but I'm sure he's said that line before and it didn't happen. Now he's got TNA releasing his stuff for him and getting them to let him do really really stupid things (Like those STUPID VOICEOVER PROMOS) that only Hardy likes.

And I do agree that Jeff Hardy should go back to WWE, because I can guarantee that, after the last two incidents, Vince simply won't put up with any bullshit from Hardy and will kick his ass to the curb if he fucks up in any way. But thats why Hardy probably won't sign with WWE again, because he can make a good chunk of money with TNA, for less work, and get to have little control perks like the stupid promo deal and having them produce and release his music.


On a side note, I listened to Jeff's EP.


It's meh. The music is alright, the production is incredible, and Jeff's vocals are just sub-par....Probably worse then sub-par, though not worse then Tiny Tims.

I suppose the only thing left to say about Jeff Hardy from my end is that he can't cut a promo to save his life and he ripped off "Creatures of the Night" from Undertaker.

I like Jeff Hardy and the way he handles things when he is not high. I even liked him when he was high and pissed off Sting(who handled him like a boss by the way) at Victory road what is probably a feat in itself. WWE has obviously enough Yes Man who stand for the bullshit the company is producing every week, anyone who has the balls to tell Vince that the booking is crap or gives a shit about his job(Batista, Jeff Hardy, Orton, RvD) would be welcome in the WWE by me.
Jeff Hardy as artist is indeed meh. The face paints are cool, but his qualities as singer are average at best.

In general, I don't know how they manage to make guys like AdR, CM Punk, Dolph Ziggler and Randy Orton(in promos, love Orton in the ring) boring but they somehow manage to do it anyway. RAW is total meaningless right now. How would have Shawn Michaels got over with the same shit every week? Or Bret Hart, the only guy to make black and pink cool? Hart and Rey Mysterio are no charisma wonders but got over with a single piece of merchandise for kids and their ring work. Or Batista if he had been saddled with the gimmick of a hungry semi-retarded person? I would be totally excited if Ryback could be like the new warrior(Unstable theme is the shit!), but right now he is a poor mans Goldberg with shades of Vader. He is going over, but I guess its temporary until people have seen enough.

Promos and segments are just poor in general, even from CM Punk with the crap he has to spout out. Cena material really, really made me ashamed to be a wrestling fan in 2012(Did not embrace the hate, made Ryder look like a chump, no Rock consequences after whining, Barbeque segment with Cole " title="Evil or Very Mad" /> , Star Wars promo, HORRIBLE stuff with Aj and Vickie). Cesaro, Kingston, the Shield, Team Hell no and Rhodes Scholars keep me watching some segments, but the rest of RAW is just torture.

Lance Archer is also meh. Maybe cause I've only seen him in WWE, but the Gatecrashers were not really good as a team. But it was a little recognition for Hawkins, and I applaud every effort to bring guys like Curt Hawkins(The Epitome of underrated by the way), Yoshi Tatsu or Trent Baretta on the screen.

Trust me, look up some vids of his TNA matches as Lance Hoyt.


His Sacrifice 2005 match against Abyss was extremely good.


On another topic, anyone notice how, in the public eye, it is considered completely unacceptable for adults to be wrestling fans?

Yeah, its "fake"....So is every other show on television, every movie, and every book. Dr. House isn't a real doctor, the guy from 24 isn't really fighting terrorists, Geoffry (spelling) isn't really a king, Liam Neeson didn't really kill the Dos Equis guy in Taken 2. Kristen Stewart isn't really a vampire.

And yet, adults can like any and all of those things, but to be a wresting fan is just too much apparently. Hence why it's hard to talk about with other people, because the first thing they all say is "but its fake"...I've literally had anime obsessed people (and I mean the ones that go to conventions, mega cosplay, talk like said character, have posters and figurines of them and squeal at every issue/episode of the manga/anime) get on my case for being a wrestling fan.

Anyone else experience those kind of issues?

I personally like the idea that its fake and flashy. The real fighters of MMA bore me to tears, that's basically 2 guys in a ring with one boring submission hold/exceptions apply of course) after the last one for me and reeks of roman colliseum gladiators which was also very popular in the public eye and finds its appeal there.

As Anime Fan, I would not look down on wrestling cause it's fake, rather because it's horrible written by daddys little girl who obviously has no idea what is going on and daddy himself who thinks that people are not just gullible but also have no memory longer than 3 weeks.
Just compare the save Sasuke arc with Nexus storyline:
*Sasuke gets "kidnapped" by the sound 4(horrible plothole cause it starts with 4 genin level enemy shinobi in high security Konoha, but ok), and the heroes(Sakura and Naruto) gather some allies to give chase. A string of epic battles takes place with a number of high emotional points(Choji Butterfly Bomb with Shikamaru sensing that his friend is in big trouble, Rock Lee/Gaara vs Kimmimaru where the next Kazekage is only saved by chance) and a big finale with Naruto vs Sasuke.
*Nexus storyline: Guys come out of WWE developmental and declare their invasion of RAW. One gets instantly released for chocking an announcer with a tie, another one attacks the wrong person(wow, that was bad, really). They get a dominant and overbearing power, even manage to grab Cena and force him to come into the fold and humiliate him at every opportunity. From there on, it goes straight downward with Cena and Orton taking out every Nexus member until they turn on each other and Punk takes over. Where Barett could have been Sasuke or at least Kimimaru, he was in the end a Jirobo guy or a Ukon guy at best(better foot soldiers) and the rest was just filler trash.

The difference seems clear to me: where the Anime arc gets only more epic and more epic, WWE plans go from *average* to *meh* to *uh* and end in *fuck this company* . It's not just this example, it's basically everything. RAW(NXT is miles ahead story wise) is literaly either a Barney the Dinosaur show or a power ranger episode right now, and both of these things don't appeal to adults cause their both repetetive and horribly unsensical, so they make you a laughing stock. The main character is bullying(Cole in sauce) hypocritical(is a good guy and buddy of Zack Ryder - shows no resistance to kissing Eve), never learns from a past mistake(this match means everything to me - the Rock was just better) and makes no sense at all most of the time(To get respect, you have to earn it - gets a championship match cause hes John boy) and so is in no way epic or heroic like Naruto or Luffy who constantly evolve, so he sends a foggy message at best.
*Hogan was obviously a dipshit and power abuser in RL, but the Hulkster was always a hero with a clear message and an honest guy in the ring (people even went Bananas for him at his fight against the Rock, and he could turn instantly to red and yellow again, what an awesome performer).
*Austin, wifebeater and dipshit too, was the best face ever and brought the pain to his bosses after getting bullied around by them, everyone dreams to do that.
*Rock, the most nice guy of them as it seems, could handle the crowd with RAW charisma, awesome mic skills and epic posing on the turnbuckle.
Poor John is as watered down Hogan who sadly has no Savage to help him and constantly battles guys like the Barbarian or the Genius instead of mean adversaries like Sid Vicious or the Undertaker cause nobody goes over or just looks menacing enough like the Undertaker.

The reason why wrestling is fake and anime and other forms of entertainment are not has to do with the origins of wrestling itself: the carnival.

Carnivals were full of stalls with games of skill of strength that were nothing but scams. They usually showcased fabulous prizes that you could win by playing games that were fixed so you couldn't win. Wrestling was born there as another scam. The term 'mark' and 'smart' are carnival terms used by the poeple that ran those games to speak of a potential target for a scam, 'mark', or someone who should be avoided, 'smart'.

Wrestling was just another of these scams. Every funfair had their World Champion as one of their attractions. Its raise to mainstream popularity at the end of the 19th century also made impossible to maintain 'kayfabe' and the 'smarts' found it a very good opportunity to look down at the 'ignorant masses' who liked wrestling.

Even now that kayfabe is dead and funfairs have almost completely abandoned the con artistry, people feel justified to look down on wrestling because of its past, because if you liked wrestling you were being conned, and because being a 'smart' always makes you feel smart...even if you are an idiot.

If you ignorant marks want to understand wrestling you should read Roland Barthes's "Mythologies", because you stupid Americans (and Germans) will never understand pro-wrestling unless a French philosopher from the 50's comes and explains it to you...

"The virtue of all-in wrestling is that it is the spectacle of excess. Here we find a grandiloquence which must have been that of ancient theaters. And in fact wrestling is an open-air spectacle, for what makes the circus or the arena what they are is not the sky (a romantic value suited rather to fashionable occasions), it is the drenching and vertical quality of the flood of light. Even hidden in the most squalid Parisian halls, wrestling partakes of the nature of the great solar spectacles, Greek drama and bullfights: in both, a light without shadow generates an emotion without reserve."

"[the wrestling aficionado] would probably die of boredom and indifference if wrestlers did not quickly return to the orgy of evil which alone makes good wrestling."

" The rhythm of wrestling is quite different, for its natural meaning is that of rhetorical amplification: the emotional magniloquence, the repeated paroxysms, the exasperation of the retorts can only find their natural outcome in the most baroque confusion"

I love it ^_^

You can read it full [url=http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~ikalmar/illustex/Barthes-wrestling.htm:1qkr2e0e]here[/url:1qkr2e0e]

PRO TIP! Next time someone tells you wrestling is fake make them read it. " title="cookie" />

@Harrier:...I don' think you can compare anime and wrestling in any possible way. Anime would win in just about every occasion....Also, Naruto sucks. Horribly. Sasuke is such a whiny little bitch.


@Kitten: Already knew about wrestling's past in the carnivals, though I suppose I'll give your french guys book a try. Oh and I believe you mean "20th century" instead of 19th. Kayfabe was still alive around the 1970's and such, though it wasn't until pro wrestling started showing up on national tv that people started to question it's legitimacy, probably because they started seeing that alot of big title matches were basically the same match over and over again. Used to be a champ could do a match with a guy in one town, then go to a town 200 miles away and do it all over again, because nobody would be the wiser, due to wrestling's limited tv appearances at the time.


Note: While Vince McMahon is the one who pulled the trigger against the territory system of wrestling's past, ending it for good, it was already condemned to die, as national tv exposure meant promoters ended up having their shows ran against other promotions shows in their own area (Ex: California's wrestling shows would end up airing in nevada). Naturally, the promoters of the territory system considered this a threat to their promotion and, had Vince not made the moves he made, the territory promoters would have basically turned on each other and ended up fizzling out one by one until Vince was the only one left anyway.



Now that I'm off my speech, I should point out this wasn't about that. XD. I was simply asking if anyone else has had a situation where they have been mocked for or have had to defend the fact that they like pro wrestling.

[quote="TaiKamiya":3jhn0v3s]@Harrier:...I don' think you can compare anime and wrestling in any possible way. Anime would win in just about every occasion....Also, Naruto sucks. Horribly. Sasuke is such a whiny little bitch.

Now that I'm off my speech, I should point out this wasn't about that. XD. I was simply asking if anyone else has had a situation where they have been mocked for or have had to defend the fact that they like pro wrestling.